It was the third time in one month. After two very public and callous break ups, Steven had gone for lucky number three. Her tears flowed across her face as she stood there like a ghost in utter disbelief. She had made the same mistake every other poor girl looking for love had made when crossing paths with my buddy Steve. He didn't know how to handle the bawling girl that stood before him heartbroken (one would think with so much practice that a certain skill level would be developed in such situations, but no) so he gave her one last hug and walked away merrily towards the school gate. By now, word had spread of Steven's promiscuity and capricious nature but, to my never ceasing amazement, the girl's still ran to him and quivered with awe. He really was that good; smooth talking, confident and sexy. But what no one else saw in my buddy was his own shattered heart. He wasn't evil in his constant replacement of female companions but simply scared. Steve always said he'd never give himself to a woman just to be screwed over and toyed with. I guess it was never an option for him to be on the receiving end of the "It's not you, it's me" speech. I honestly can't remember if I tried to give him advice on this but sincerely hope that he has changed. Everyone seems to want to fall in love, but no one wants to jump. Knowing God, to me, is an awful lot like falling in love. You're either all in, willing to lose it all, or you're like my buddy Steven; dwelling in limbo never getting to know whether the risk was worth the reward.
The Bible, ever ready to tend to all situations with an abundance of wisdom and advice, seems to have addressed this same concept. Granted, it doesn't mention anything about teenage love and raging hormones, but Jesus portrays this idea very well. Revelation 3: 15-16 says, "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other. So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold- I am about to spit you out of my mouth." Now, what would a good Bible verse be without an equally beautiful and artistically voiced threat; such as the one of spitting the fence-sitters out of Jesus' mouth? But, I digress. This passage, to me, is a very powerful one. It commands us, and rightfully so in my opinion, to be polarized about our faith and relationship with God. The "hot" being the Bible abiding Christians who do all that is instructed of them and the "cold" being the heathens. What I find pleasant is that Jesus seems to frown upon the Christians dwelling on the fence with their faith more than he does me, an ice cold critic. There might be hope yet! This verse is very important in that it clearly highlights, directly quoting Jesus Christ himself, that people who compromise but an inch of their faith are, figuratively speaking, doomed. Jesus asked us all to jump, with the reward not being teenage love, but eternity in heaven. But, I sometimes wonder how many Christians today are doing what is demanded of them by their deity?
From my observations today, there aren't many Christians who are as “hot” as they should be. What's ironic is that the ones that are abiding by the doctrine that they hope will send them to heaven, are viewed as extremists and radicals. I personally believe that it is very true to conclude that faith, of the burning hot nature that we are speaking of, has waned after many years of fluctuation since its early conception, most notably in the late 19th century. One needs not look further than Galileo and his meddling with the church to see this phenomenon. Christians back in those days were far more "radical" than the ones today, and the church knew that seemingly unwavering faith would have to be compromised with the findings of scientists such as Galileo. The lukewarm tendency to believe in God was inevitable with the accelerated understanding of our universe that science has provided. To me, it's not necessarily a bad thing that religion has finally begun to retreat ground in the face of science but, as I have mentioned before, this is not what any particular set of beliefs commands of its followers. It must be noted, however, that this depolarization is not solely caused by scientific breakthroughs but also by the development of equal rights and modernization of human equality.
The main contributor to the lukewarm faith epidemic is the picking and choosing of scripture to abide by or ignore. Many things bother me about picking and choosing what to believe. For one, the age of our beloved mother Earth. I'm sure you've heard of the theory that a day in the book of genesis could have been a thousand or even a million years. This particular idea, to me, is simply conceding in the face of modern science which has proved the Earth is most certainly not merely 6000 years old. I recently read an article by a Christian apologist who foolishly tried to claim that continental drift, which occurred over millions of years, inch by inch, fitted in perfectly with the Biblical portrayal of the world. He claimed that the continents “could have moved at a much faster rate" back in the day, thereby still staying true to the young earth ideology. How preposterous of a self claimed scientist to ignore the power of heat friction that would have surely caused Armageddon had the continents moved at such a rate. But, I digress.
Another aspect of the Christian faith that apologists have blindly tried to weave together with modern day science is our beautiful predecessors, the dinosaurs. Countless articles have been written about a few "mistranslated words" in their vain attempts to reconcile the proof that dinosaurs existed with the Biblical account of world history. What gets me is that they completely ignore the evidence that proves these larger than life creatures roamed the planet many eons before we were ever blessed by God to dwell in it. The most over used rebuttal of this is that carbon dating "cannot be trusted". Well, if one can claim to have an original depiction of the Bible because of many corroborative copies, then it is equally fair to conclude that that vast amount of skeletal remains that have been carbon dated are also just as accurate. Evolution, particularly micro evolution, is my personal favorite in the list of culprits that cause lukewarm faith within religion. Despite there being absolutely no mentioning of it in the Bible, God's inerrant and apparently perfect word, Christian scientists still take a few steps back in the face of scientific evidence. Again, I most certainly do not have a problem with the Christian community succumbing to the acceleration of science, but it really does go against what their god asks of them in their faith in him.
The last two points I will make are of a social nature. Women being ordained, which is obviously something the Bible would never utter, is the first. We have picked and chosen what to believe in light of our ever growing equality. Once more, this isn’t a bad thing in my eyes. The second is the abolishment of slavery in the modern world in light of, well, common sense. I am very aware that I have been rather sketchy with the list of things that I believe can be attributed to a person of lukewarm faith, so I apologize for not going into more detail on matters such as the age of the Earth or Dinosaurs. Rest assured that such matters will be dissected with further precision in future posts.
I feel as though, in light of the recent recession of faith since its conception, that it is fair to assume that one day religion it will inevitably be completely eradicated. With the acceleration of science, and human logic in the social sphere, religious dogma and myths are bound to eventually die out. Who knows, maybe one day we won’t give homosexuals a hard time because a book told us to, or make unscientific claims on something as scientific as the evolution of our race or the age of the world we occupy. I am confident this day will come, but won’t be waiting for it as eagerly as I am waiting for Jesus' second coming! But, that's a whole other topic which I look forward to commenting on soon.
Before concluding, I would like to express my admiration of the groups of people like the ones at www.answeresingenesis.com. Despite using apologetics in wrestling with science and a minimal amount of actual research, I appreciate the hardnosed defense of their faith without conceding anything to science. Of course, this is foolish in the sense that they are essentially bringing a knife to a gun fight when going up against science with apologetics, but nonetheless, their faith is one to be in awe of. If any of what the Bible says about heaven and getting in there is true, then they're surely invited to the party! The basic message I am trying to convey here is that you cannot have your cake and eat it too. It's just not how the world works. I plead with all those that call themselves Christian to analyze the passage highlighted in this blog (Revelation 3: 15-16) and evaluate their own "faith". To fall in love, you must jump. To hopefully fall into heaven, you must jump farther than your mind may let you. In this case, don't defend your religion by conceding points and picking and choosing scripture, but take a stand. You're either hot, and do everything that your faith requires, however outdated or preposterous it is, or you're cold, and give in to the modernization of scientific and social concepts while conceding that the book you preach from may be outdated. Jesus said he doesn't want lukewarm.
First off, I very much like the way you phrased the first 3 paragraphs, well done. Its unfortunate in todays world how almost everyone(including Christians) believe that science is completely against Christianity. In fact, it does quite the opposite; it supports it very much. I don't know anything about the christian scientist that you descibed above, or his thoery of tectonic plate movement, however, I do know this: The ocean every year loses some of its water mass because of evaporation; if evolution is true and the world is 600 billion years old(give or take a few billion), than at the rate that the ocean is losing its water mass, we would be able to walk on the ocean because there would be no more water left in it; all of the water would have evaporated leaving only the salt. There is also scienific evidence in our cosmos that proves creation; something about a certain type of star, but because I don't have all of that info, I am going to suggest that you googlevthe Creation Museums' arguments supporting creation.
ReplyDeleteI, and other Christians also believe in a type of evolution if u will; not evolution as science today believes in, but we believe that God created all animals to be able to adapt to the various environments around the world, not morph from a wolf to a whale, like evolution suggests. Carbon dating is pretty a pretty shaky subject, but for that and for the dinosaurs, I would suggest that you google the Creation Museum simply because I don't have that info off the top of my mind.
Now another topic that I have talked with you about but never got into really, is Rev 3:15-16. I completely agree with this passage because with Christianity, you are either IN(hot) or you're OUT(cold); God doesn't want any "inbetweens". Up until this point I have very much appreciated the way you approached this topic, but I must disagree with the way you phrased the "hot" christians do EXACTLY what the Bible says, not because I think that we SHOULDN'T, but because we simply CAN'T. Being "hot" in this passage means that you are completely devoted to, and willing to live a life as God commands, He knows that you won't be able to follow it EXACTLY because of our human nature. I'm not sure what you were saying with that particular sentence, but I just though I'd clear it up if you DO mean what I think you do. The rest of the post was worded very well, great job!
To begin with, id like to disagree with the notion that science supports the Bibles claims very much. Now, granted there a LOT of things within the texts of the Bible that can be proven scientifically, but these things only range from historical places and times a certain ruler was in power. No doctrine in any religion can be proven by science.
ReplyDeleteAs far as your idea of water in the ocean being evaporated....c'mon dude! It evaporates, turns into steam, rises, condenses in clouds, and then it rains again! Lol, nice try tho ;) Also, even if, by some freak chance, the water that was evaporated didn't return to the ocean by rainfall, the accelerated rate of evaporation has only begun recently due to global warming. It was not always this fast.
As far as there being "scientific evidence" for creation, i am highly skeptical for number of reasons. One, your source is much like the group at www.answersingenesis.com, apologists with minimal scientific referal to their claims. Two, if there were scientific evidence it would be screamed from the highest rooftops coz that REALLY is a breakthrough for humanity. And three, creationists are ready to discredit science whenever it goes against them by refuting their wildly inaccurate claims and say things like, "well, you cant measure god!". But, when they THINK that science is somehow supporting them, they readily preach that their "truth" is supported by science. This double standard is unfair and well, typical of apologetic techniques.
I know you and some other Christians believe in some sort of evolution, i mentioned that. Its called micro evolution. And, unfortunately, it still goes against the doctrine you preach. I wont speak for you personally, but in my mind thats a sign of a lukewarm faith in the face of scientific evidence for evolution. As far your saying the other idea of evolution turns wolfs into whales, well....i wont even go there. That is just wrong beyond belief. I urge you research more into evolution.
As far as carbon dating is concerned, I urge you to research other sites and sources other than apologetics dressed up as scientists. You might find yourself some other opinions on that matter and many others.
The last point id like to clear up is my admittedly loose use of the term "lukewarm" faith. I know no one is perfect and without sin, if we were, Jesus would be unemployed. So, i wasn't saying that to have "hot" faith means you are perfect. I was saying that to be described in the way Jesus says in revelation is to uphold to ALL the claims of your holy book, even the preposterous and outdated one like i mentioned in the post. Letting women be ordained, giving them equal rights, abolishing slavery and preaching SOME form of evolution is lukewarm faith and retracting belief in the face of science. Again, not a bad thing in my mind. But not what Jesus asked of his people.
Christianity can, has, and will be proven by science until the end of the ages. Science doesn't fault Christianity or vice versa, they support each other. You simply have to take your biased goggles off and actually look deep enough.
ReplyDeleteAbout the ocean topic, I can see that with your naive answer you didn't take even two minutes to research what I said so... let me explain. Yes when the water from the sea evaporates it goes back up to the clouds and rains back down to earth again. BUT, as it returns to the sea from the earth, it gathers different minerals or "salts" that flow right back into the ocean along with the water. Now I'm sure you know that solid minerals can't evaporate, so... what happens to those minerals when the water evaporates? Oh yes, they stay in the ocean and the process reapeats itself. That is simple logic that NO scientist can argue with; in fact, I got that info(minerals gathered by the rain water) from a site that believes that the world is 600 or so billion years old. Here it is: http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm. And if the world really is 600 billion years old, it wouldn't need global warming to help that process. All of that from an apologetic "disguised as a scientist" who doesn't have anything that even comes CLOSE to a degree in science.
In response to the first part of your third paragraph: please take the time to look at the Creation Museum. Simply ignoring because it has the term "creation" in it will lead to these lectures about the cycle of rainfall and such. Now for the second part: I am screaming it! It is a breakthrough that should've happened a long long time ago but because wussy Catholic Christians were afraid to stand up to these scientists, that hasn't happened until very recent years. And in the past, yes, believers would try to fault science because it seemed to oppose basic beliefs; THAT is EXACTLY what I, and many other Christians are trying to stop. Science proves creation dude. Sorry to burst your bubble.
You know, I believe I used the wrong term; evolution is too strong a word to use in this case. Let me rephrase: I believe that God created animals and humans to be able to adapt to different environments. Not change from a regular beetle to a bombardier beetle which evolution DOES suggest. A simple argument for that, which I'm sure you've heard before is: if evolution was true, there would be fossil records showing the part man, part monkey changing process. And how does simple adaptation to different environments contradict the Bible?
And just FYI, I very rarely look at apologetic sites such as answersingenesis.com or whatever. I take info that has been taught by atheist scientists, and I use that info as a base for most of my arguments; such as the one I posted in an earlier paragraph(second one I believe).
I would like to see how letting women be ordained and such is preached against by the Bible. Feel free to share some verses.
Honestly man, did u even do 2 minutes of research on what I said? My guess is no, so I am going to have to explain it to you myself(maybe thats what u wanted). Yes, the water evaporates and turns to steam and rains again, sure. Did I say that it didn't? No. Think about this for a sec, it rains again, but what happens to that rain water as it returns to the ocean from rivers and such? The water gathers all kinds of minerals, mostly salt minerals from the rocks and river beds, and then returns to the ocean. Now we can go through the evaporation prcess again... the WATER evaporates LEAVING the minerals in the ocean, since they cannot evaporate. And if the world was 13.7 billion years old or whatever the claim is, global warming wouldn't matter, thats PLENTY of time for the ocean to become solid. Oh yeah, all of that coming from an "apologetic dressed up as a scientist".... me. Except I don't even have 3 years worth of studying any kind of science, so.....LOL urself dude:P.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing, the sources I use more than 70% of the time are from scientists who are prejudiced against Christianity and all other faiths. I have never even once taken an idea from answeresingenesis.com or whaterver it was you posted.
I AM SCREAMING IT DUDE!! And not only me, people like my father, converted scientists, and many others who are competent in that matter. Yes its true that many people tend to discredit science when it seems to contradict their beliefs, but those people have simply not been exposed to the people who are believers and have experience in those fields.
I believe I used the wrong word again, and for that I apolgize. Evolution is too strong a word in this case. I was simply saying that God did create humans and animals alike to be able to adapt to the varoius environments of the earth. So how does that contradict anything in the Bible?
I do uphold all of the teachings of the Bible, and there is not a single sentence in it that cannot be used in the context of todays world.
Well, your refernce to the ocean was unclear. Only now are you talking about minerals, so i apologize for finding it funny. Althoug, had u actually meant that, it would have been funny. I will most definately research more on this minerals hypothesis which you have brought fourth altough, i am skeptical because this is the first ive ever heard of it from either an apologist or secular scientist. But, nonetheless, i shall give it the same respect i do to other such claims and look into it.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing, you estimate that 70% percent of your sources are secualar. But, how often do you read them with an open mind and not with the idea that whatever they say will conradict you and if ANYONE does that, they're against what you believe in? I hope very the answer to that is very little, but, again, im skeptical because of your many rants on the "attacks on christianity" by such articles. All i ask is that if you do read so much contradictory material, you do so with an open mind. Thats what i did and am currently doing with the Bible.
Your wording was perfect. microevolution: the name used by many evolutionists to describe genetic variation, the empirically observed phenomenon in which exisiting potential variations within the gene pool of a population of organisms are manifested or suppressed among members of that population over a series of generations. Often simplistically (and erroneously) invoked as “proof” of “macro evolution”. No where does the bible mention cave men, nor does it allow the immense time needed for such variations to occur in all species. Im sorry bud, but you're giving ground to science over your faith (with good reason, i might add ;) ) and doing exactly what my blog is talking about. Be hot, freind! :P
I would sincerly like to challenge your idea about "upholding all of the teaching of the bible". There is not a christian alive today who does that. As far as your use of the context arguement, i would joyfuly refer you to my previous blog about it in which i beleive i clearly invalidated it as an apologetic technique used to explain the absurdities in religion. You never attempted to refute that point (remember the yolked discussion we had!? lol :P ) so i assumed you agreed. Obviously, being a very adament apologetic, you dont agree because you need it. Wanna debate that sometime? Im in utah now, mountaine time. Hit me up whenever u wanna msn, or just do comments back n forth on here coz i dont really know when i can be on. Bye, dude! :)
Yeah sorry for not making myself clearer than I did about that ocean stuff; true, it sounded pretty dumb, I apologize. But it is a valid argument and its simply logic.
ReplyDeleteNow you have officially confused me. I read everything(including the Bible) with an open mind; that is why I am so convicted to Christianity because it makes so much sense if you actually take the time to find meaning behind the verses. Isn't that how u prefer to read stuff? With an open mind?
Now about the evolution. I cannot fully explain this to you over the internet but I will try my best. Let me ask you this simple question that I hope will callenge your thinking on genetic variation: When you cross a horse with a zebra, or a black man with a white woman, do you not get genetic variation? Of course they are going to change. From the zebra comes a zorse(there is such a thing by the way) and from the black man and white woman comes a tanner colored child, neither black nor white. And that doesn't take 13.7 billion years to happen. Only one night of fun ;). That is getting into genetics and I don't know much about it but if u want to get into that, I will be happy to do some research.
Again, Im sorry for the wording that I used. I was in a hurry to write that message so here is the revised version: I do my best to uphold all the teachings of the Bible and there is not a single sentece in it that cannot be used in the context of todays world.
Please show me that "invalidation" of the context argument and I will promptly validate it again.(I thought I already had but maybe I commented on the wrong one)
Have a blast in Utah dude!! All the best.
Well, obviously one of us isnt open minded about things coz we're totaly polarized on these issues. I wont get into accusation, coz thats lame and how atheists go about things and to me, they're just as wrong as religion. Tell me this, is a child born in a, lets say, muslim missionary familiy more likely to hold to the beleifs that he/she is engulfed in during his/her entire childhood OR another form of belief? I'll let u ponder that one.
ReplyDeleteWhat your talking about, the whole black n white creating a mixed race child is absoloutly NOT any form of evolution. Micro or Macro. If your choosing to re state your beleifs in the matter, please state that. Im glad ur obviousli not an evolutionist coz that would be unfair to jesus, contraty to scientific proof.
The invalidation is in the previous post, titled the everlasting word of god. I urge you to re read it and see how that arguemnt is clearly invalidated and debunked.
Utah is good so far dude. Cant wait to start school. Its freaking HOTTT here! gheez! :P having a good time tho :D
The answer to that(raised in a muslim fam) really depends on what kind of education you have of other faiths. But I would defenitely say that they would adopt the beliefs that they were taught. Now I have a story for u that my sister told me after she came back from Lebanon and Syria. A Sheikh there was reading the Quran/Kuran and found some mistakes in it. So he took a Bible and started to compare the 2(which is encouraged by Islam). As he was comparing them, he noticed that all of the good verses in the Kuran/Quran were taken from the Bible, so he saught after any Christian that he could find so that he could talk to them and convert, but there were no known christians in that area. However, a well known preacher that day was visiting the area because he felt a strange feeling telling him that he should. The sheikh found him, went to church, and 3 weeks later converted to christianity. So here we can see that u don't have to have any influence, you can be raised in a Muslim home with muslim fam, and still you can convert to the truth.
ReplyDeleteAnd no I do not believe in ANY form of evolution.
That sounds like a very powerful story. Im sure there are just as many like it with christians who convert to other religions. I am also just as sure that whatever the amount good, wholesome verses shared (not copied ;) let's not be arrogant now nathan, Allah's got some wisdom too!) by the bible and quran, there are just as many messed up and out dated verses also. In both texts.
ReplyDeleteYou have contradicted yourself again, freind. Nathan says, "I, and other Christians also believe in a type of evolution if u will"
Nathan also says, "And no I do not believe in ANY form of evolution."
Anywho, i know you'll probably start explaining that with your lack of clarity in earlier posts, but this is balck n white buddy. First you do, then you don;t. Who's side are you one!? Lol :P Just kidding
Actually I haven't heard of any stories of Christians willingly converting to Islam, or any other religion for that matter. And I'm pretty sure that u haven't either; and if they did, they were christians with lukewarm faith in the first place. I have not contradicted myself in any way shape or form. And this is where the "inconsistencies" in the Bible come from. You pulled that single sentence out of context to make it sound like I said something that I in fact didn't. Unless I have a terrible memory, I think I apologized for the use of that term: "I believe I used the wrong word again, and for that I apolgize. Evolution is too strong a word in this case". That is exactly what happened to the Bible as well; mostly from atheists who don't want the responsibility of commiting their lives to God, so they just pull a verse right out of the Bible and make it sound like it says smth that it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteSo to clarify, I do NOT believe in Evolution in the slightest. Micro, Macro, or just plain evolution crap; I actually hadn't even heard of those(micro/macro) until u mentioned them. Hope I made myself a bit clearer this time. :)
Just coz you havent heard of it, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I personaly know of MANY stories about chrisitans who saw the error of their doctrine. You can CLAIM tehy were lukewarm, but only god knows our hearts. Not me. Not you.
ReplyDeleteYou made urself clearer the first time u clarified yourself and i only pulled out that one sentence to save time. I actually informed you that you'd bring this up to excuse your contradiction (which is exactly what this is).
I wont go on trying to get to accept the fact that you contradicted yourslef by changing the words you used after seeing you were maybe being lukewarm. I hope you'll reconsider ur convictions in the future before spewing them on the internet and having to contradict yourself.
The fact that u dissmissed any kind of evolution and didnt even have the open mindedness to learn about micro and macro and "just plain evolution crap" tells me you are being ignorant and sticking to your faith not coz its true, but coz its what you are. And your just after defending your "turf", no matter what it says. I hope this will one day change, buddy.
First of all, this stupid blog makes rewrite almost every stinking comment I post for some reason or another, so that is why sometimes I fail to make myself clear because I spend a good amount of time writing a comment only to have the blog say it was too large to process or something like that, and so I get frustrated and write quicker sentences than I would usually write. The only times I ever change my words is after this blog screws up my original comment, forcing me to write it again.
ReplyDeleteBe very careful about assuming what I have learned Elird. I am pretty confident that I have visited more evolution promoting museums in the first 12 years of my life than u have ur entire life. And I call it crap because that is exactly what it is. Crap. A huge frickin lie that atheists and skeptics came up with because they didn't want the responsibility of commiting their lives to God. I stick to my faith because there has not been a single argument that atheist/skeptic scientists have come up with that has not been proven wrong by true christians. I have answered scientifically,honestly, and factually every single question that you had about the "inconsistencies" within the Bible until now, and I hope that u keep coming up with questions and doubts because it seems to me like the only way I'll get you to understand is if we go through every single sentence in the Bible. I am willing to go that far. Are u?
Nathan, dude....
ReplyDeleteNathan says, " I actually hadn't even heard of those(micro/macro) until u mentioned them."
Nathan ALSO says, " am pretty confident that I have visited more evolution promoting museums in the first 12 years of my life than u have ur entire life."
^^^ Guess you didnt pay much attention, eh? Too bad, u seem to have missed out. I am VERY careful not to assume anything. Everything i say is based off of your responses.
I really wish you'd be more careful with the way you express yourself because this is the third time you have contradicted yourself. If this were an actual debate, you'd have lost a LONG time ago.
Also, you have most certainly not "answered scientifically,honestly, and factually every single question" that i have brought fourth. Not even close. If you did provide a reasonable explanation for even ONE of my queries id be the first to let you know, im NOT afraid of being a christian or giving my life to god. Im not like the atheists you seem to loathe so much. It JUST isnt true.
Again you are pulling sentences out of context. I was 12 dude. I didn't get into all of the compicated stuff like micro/macro. I visited the places that my little mind could comprehend; they don't exactly try to lure kids in by talking about complicated forms of life and stuff. Don't be so naive. You are a smart guy for crying out loud.
ReplyDeleteThis IS a debate, and no one has lost yet. I have answered every question you came up with; u decided to ignore it and start again. Every time I TRY to give u an explanation, you start on again(on the same point) about how its not true, ignoring completely my explanation. ESPECIALLY when I site a christian website; you admitted urself that u don't look at them. Its happening with the Jesus and the Mosaic Law thing dude. It happened with Constantine, it happened with the vision of Jesus coming in his kingdom while some of the disciples were alive. Again; I didn't say that U specifically were afraid. I am not so ignorant as to not understand when you say that "maybe in two years I will realize how stupid I was and convert to christianity, or Islam....maybe even Buddha." Maybe thats not exactly how u said it, but its pretty close.
I do not loathe anyone. I don't particularly LIKE them, but I don't loathe them at all. I loathe their ignorance, if anything.
And the 12 year old thing, just putting stuff into perspective. I have visited a few more museums since then as well, I am not basing all of my defences on my 12 year old and under experiences. In fact, most all of them have come from later years when I could actually think maturely and for myself. Just to clarify.
ReplyDeleteWell, i urge you to be more careful when phrasing your apparent superior knowledge of evolution on the vast amoung of musems you've visited. More than me, i know ;)
ReplyDeleteI regret to inform you once again, but your attempts at answering the questions were no where good enough to convince ANY sort of skeptic or any normal person looking into the bible and its truthfulness. PLEASE dont be silly enough to think i have ignored them just because they simply havent been good enough. Apologetics and the tactics you use so well may have convinced many ppl before (not you yourself, but in general) but i have a little more background knowlege on these matters so, when they dont work just know: i DID listen, they were NOT good enough to validate the bible as being true. Those may come as harsh words to you and u may think im using such a tough "criteria" on this coz i want to prevent it from being true... Think what you like. This is the most important issue today and i refuse to believe anything but the absolute truth. Christianity, i regret to inform you, is not that.
As far my "pulling senteces out of context", Nathan....that little tactic is growing stale. You know full well i read the whole comment and took it into account when paraphrasing your OWN words and showing you how u contrdict yourself. I do the same with the bible. So please, enough with the little excuse apologetics always all back on? Lets try and move above and beyonde the traditional atheist/apologetic "debate"? I know your smarter than to need to use apologetics. So show it, will ya.
Also, idk if this will mean anything to you and i DONT in any way mean it to sounds offensive or have a double meaning but...its ok to be wrong. You dont even have to tell me or anyone else. Just please review what i am telling you w a clear mind instead of this "defender of the faith" persona you have come to indentify yourself with.
I have told u time and time again that I try to use an open mind for everything. And all I said was don't assume u know my backround knowledge of evolution. I never said I knew/know more. But the reason I said that is because at times it seems like u are talking to me about evolution like I have no idea what it is or what its basic teachings are. So I'm sorry that it came out that way, but I had had enough patronizing. U can probably relate, and I'm sorry if at times I did the same.
ReplyDeleteI am not afraid of being wrong, so let me put this in a way that u should appreciate. I heard this from someone else so I don't take the credit for coming up with it, but here it is: "I teach what I know, and readily admit what I do not." I will let u know if I think I'm wrong, which I have done in the past. I am not here to try to show that I have superior knowledge than others. That would be VERY arrogant of me. But u urself also said in a previous post that u wouldn't admit that u were wrong to your "foe" at the time if u were.
If my explanations aren't clear enough for u, than friggin tell me dude; I promise that my feelings won't be hurt because u ask for better explanation. But that is why I try to give u a site that will better explain to u what I am trying to convey because I'm aware that I don't know the Bible perfectly and never will. And u urself did admit that u hadn't looked at them. The fault is on u for that part dude. See how much friggin time we wasted because 1: I didn't explain things well enough for u, and 2: u failed to tell me that my explanations weren't good enough and instead just saying that they were wrong? I think we BOTH need to be clearer. So in the future, lets touch on 1 point at a time so that we eliminate questions 1 by 1 instead of getting confused.
I never said you werent clear in your explanations, just that they either 1) used old, withered apologetic style techiniques that make no sense and fail when scrutinzed logicaly and 2) have their bases on the assumption that i have not read around the mistakes in your bible which i bring fourth.
ReplyDeleteIm sorry but you were perfectly clear, they just werent good enough reasons is all. No where near good enough. And the sites you provide sat the EXACT same thing (the ones i have read) so why bother? Apologetics is a joke, not a search for truth in any way shape or form. THAT is why i dont really care to spend too much time reading into their so called "explanations" or "answeres".
Give me some real reasons and possible answeres to chew on, THEN we can debate. Butif your gonna keep bringing this to the table.... then whats the point? you know? You're better than that, i hope.
OK man. I want to make this particular point as clear as a can: there is nothing I can do to make u see this Truth. That is all up to u. All I can do is simply open your eyes.
ReplyDeleteNow these many conversations I've had with u are the very first I have EVER had in any kind of detail, so I'm sorry if it seems like I use old techniques or anything like that, but I assure u that I first try to give MY interpretation(which may seem very close to apologetic techniques, but honestly dude, I am not even fully aware of all the kinds of arguments that they even use) of things, and those may seem outdated to u; but then u have never given me an explanation(until that FB message u sent) explaining why they are outdated/invalid techniques. I do NOT claim to know the answers to all of the questions concerning the Bible, no one has, can, or will ever know all of the answers; that is part of why I know for sure that this book IS the true Word of God. Let me put it this way: if anyone thinks that the creator of the cosmos' intellect, can be understood by theirs......they are in a WORLD of hurts. Now I am by no means saying that having and asking questions are, well...out of the question:P, I am saying that humankind will never have ALL of the answers to Gods splendor. But I also will not rule out the POSSIBILITY, mind u, that God could very well have put things(like creation) into "simple" enough equations for man to be able to unveil(and this would be my open mind wandering about). I encourage you, since u are in the States, to take a look at 'Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman' to understand what I am getting at in the previous sentence.
I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but u too are being an apologetic. You are defending your views and beliefs, and by THAT definition, you too fit into the category of 'apologetic'. Many people don't realize that they are apologetics, so I fully expect this to not make a whole lot of sense to u at first.
Theres a lot i can reply to ur comment, but i wont. Lets conclude this particular debate coz its really not going anywhere. I will leave you with one....saying? thing? idk, call it what you will
ReplyDeleteThis is the beauty of where I stand: im not FIXED to any idea or set of ideas and im actually ALLOWED to be wrong about the age of the earth, creation, pretty much everything. Religion does not allow that, thats why you HAVE to defend EVERYTHING in the bible even if it were presented smwhere else you'd call it nonsense (which im confidant you wont accept now, but hey). THATS why there are apologetics dude. To defend smth that "supposedly" the ultimate truth....but not really.
Im simply defending my views that we simply CANNOT comprehend god in the way religion trys (and u seem to have agreed w me there, but i wont quote you on that coz you'll go off on me). I preach the gospel of i dont know, freind. Consider it. It might make some sense ;)
I have always stood by the fact that man won't ever be able to understand God. Long before I even met u. And I am against religion too man, Christianity isn't a religion, (which I know u won't accept but I'm still putting it out there) it's a faith. There is a difference there. And u are very mistaken if u think that the Bible tries to COMPREHEND God or make Him understandable to us; in fact, nowhere does it preach that we CAN, so... whatever dude. Not sure I know what u mean by "even if it were presented smwhere else you'd call it nonsense", so please clear that up before I comment on it.
ReplyDeleteI don't HAVE to defend ANYTHING; I do it for your sake, not mine. I already believe it, and have found it to be true. Its just a matter of time before u admit it too. Every knee WILL bow, and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus is Lord. I wouldn't wait until judgement day to do so(and in ur case, I don't think u will, but.... I won't rule anything out).
Nathan says, "And u are very mistaken if u think that the Bible tries to COMPREHEND God or make Him understandable to us" <<< It does, it tells us everything about him, his nature, his will, what he's done, why he's done it, who his "son" is. EVERYTHING. Im sorry, but you have made no sense, let alone an actual point, with this comment.
ReplyDeleteNathan says, " Its just a matter of time before u admit it too." <<< I have no shame in being wrong and falling before god. IF the bible were ever proved true to me, i would bow. However, i refer you to a blog ive been writing in to which there has been no credibal refuation (yet). There's been a tonne of apologetics, thats for sure. But NOTHING concrete.
Nathan says, "I wouldn't wait until judgement day to do so" <<< I wont sugar it up for ya, THIS is a sign of ur indoctrination. I refer you to the paragraph that discusses hell and what it does to the "victims" in later life.
Putting Him in perspective so that man can have even a very SIMPLE idea of what He is like and actually giving Him a definition are two very different things. Nowhere does MAN(in the Bible) give God a CONCRETE definition of what He is like. GOD gives us HINTS of what He is like, He has done so often and let man write it down, but MAN directly does not try to give him a definition. I think u might've misunderstood that.
ReplyDeleteI am also very curious as to who exactly u are relying on to get these proofs about the Bible. I hope for BOTH of our sakes that u are not completely relying on my word alone. That would be a mistake because I know FOR SURE that I make mistakes and can(yes I CAN) misinterpret the Bible sometimes. But let me give u this advice for next time u decide to take a look: Let the Bible read the Bible.
Nathan says, "Putting Him in perspective so that man can have even a very SIMPLE idea of what He is like and actually giving Him a definition are two very different things." << Ow nathan, go back and read your bible and SEEEEE for yourself how god is described (by humans, no less) in such detail. With words like anger, jealousy, love. This is no allusion freind. This is a [false] claim to truth and to the knowledge of ur so called indescribable god.
ReplyDeleteNathan says, " I hope for BOTH of our sakes that u are not completely relying on my word alone." <<< you can bet your ass im not relying on you for my factual interpreation and understanding of the bible. Thats for sure.
Nathan says, " Let the Bible read the Bible." <<< I prefer to make my own deisions using the brain god gave me when trying to understand him, not someone else's ideology or understand. AFTER ALL, is that the entire point of your protestant faith!? Being able to read it on ur own and draw ur own conclusions? Sounds like u need further study on actually understanding your faith before you go about trying to defend it.
Yet again u missed the point.I said "Let the Bible read the Bible" meaning that u should put all biases aside(which u have made a habit of NOT doing) and read.
ReplyDeleteLet me ask u this: do U ever copy the whole context? Obviously not cause u would've caught this part:"GOD gives us HINTS of what He is like, He has done so often and let man write it down, but MAN directly does not try to give him a definition." Here is a verse that confirms it: Hebrews 20:5. Man has only repeated the descriptions of God that He Himself gave to mankind. Nice try though ;).
Steven sounds like a made-up name.
ReplyDeleteMcclain, shhhhhhh. No one knows ;) keep it on the DL for the blogs sake, will ya! :P
ReplyDelete