With tears streaking down our faces, my brother and I ponderously walked through the front door of our home in London. My Mom ran to hold us and investigate what had caused this most dramatic of entrances. Not deferring from the usual, Dad was calmly watching the news, not really taking much notice as we began to describe the screaming gang of older boys who had picked a fight with us. Naturally, my mother was saddened to hear this but above all, grateful that we were OK. This reaction did not surprise either of us in the least. Dad's reaction, however, did. He immediately rose from his slumber state of meditation and said he was going to the park to fix this. I pleaded with him to stay home as the three of us where scared of what might transpire between the gruesome gang of loitering teens and my Father. Stubborn as ever, he told me to stop crying and take care of my mom and brother as he left the house. Half an hour later he returned; calm and cool as ever taking his throne and continuing his afternoon perusal of the daily news. When we asked what had happened he didn't tell us any details but assured us we would no longer face problems while playing at the park. I am a peaceful character at heart, but how could a kid not feel satisfied at his Dad kicking the butts of some bullies? With a fair amount of certainty I can confirm for both my brother and I that we had never felt more protected, safe and comforted than on that day.
We come into the world as very dependent beings, in constant need to be loved and nurtured. It is my personal belief that this necessity sticks with us forever as human beings while we go about looking for safe and secure situations to dwell in. The person we see after the stork drops us off is our mother; caring and loving enough not be turned away by the piles of poop she will inevitably wipe away. The second being we come to know is the man of the house. We look to our fathers for support and a type of love that is very different than that of our mothers. Whether you're a guy or a girl, you will always look to your dad to take care of things and, more importantly, to look out for you and be your crutch in a world where injuries are aplenty. Those of us unfortunate enough not to have our fathers around will instinctively look for an ample substitute. In some cases, a single mom takes on the arduous task of completing the duties of a father. In others, a child will look to older friends as role models or ideals of what a man should be. And this is the most important thing a father does for his little girl or boy. He shows his daughter how a woman is to be treated by the opposite sex; with respect, equality and, above all, love. On the flip side, it is also his duty to show his son how to treat a woman and be "a real man". In extreme cases, our need for a father figure drives us to gangs. The family feel of a "band of brothers" attempts to fill the gaping hole of a missing father. Sadly, it fails. Judging by human history and religion in particular, we have taken our search for a Daddy and, somehow, found God.....
Many religious people I know have answered that having God has gotten them through the tough times in life and, in some cases, even saved them. The notion I presented in the previous post about us possibly creating God in our image is bolstered by this glaring fact that we have taken the attributes normally used to describe our fathers and, after adding a good dose of Omni, decided that God is also that way. Our naturally human need to be comforted and consoled, coupled together with our impatience and need for answers, has led us to find the nearest thesaurus and begin professing to the world about how God is.
What I've found rather ironic while reading about different religion and their ideas of God's nature is that they all glorify him in saying that he is "indescribable" or "too big for a human to comprehend", yet have all arrived to the conclusion that God is the proud owner of a penis (and well endowed, I imagine)! One thing that bothers me greatly is why humans have decided God has to be male. I mean, why can't "he" be a female? We all come out of one, so it logically follows that the first human would as well. Or, screw that, why does God, the creator of everything we can see or touch, have to be a man or a women? It makes no sense to me at all. The only conclusion I have been able to arrive to is that our male dominated and chauvinistic society decided to create God in their image. Just look at when all three of the world religion today were born; Islam has been around since the year 600 ad, Christianity since the a couple decades after the death of Christ and Judaism since, well, a really, really long time ago. Think about how only recently women have been granted equality, on paper anyway, and how it must have been nearly two millennia ago! I mean, women had nearly zero rights. After scrutinizing the Old Testament you can find a wealth of passages that display the inferiority of women in the bible. The New Testament is less notorious about this and the most diabolical breach of women’s rights I could find was Paul telling the females to "please just shut up" (see 1 Timothy 2: 11-12). I don't mean to pick on the Bible here as the rights of women are terribly toyed with by all three of these religions. This, to me, also goes along with how we created God in our image, and heavily relied upon the culture and tradition at the time of "conception". Sadly, with these religions being heavily outdated, women as second class citizens were just part of such traditions. How unfortunate.
It may seem trivial, but the idea of God as a father is a very important one. I believe it highlights the fact that the need to be loved and comforted drove us to create such patriarchal and bigoted ideas of our creator without being humble enough to accept that maybe "he" is really indescribable. As for the rest of this lovely blog, I will (and this pains me greatly to say) conform to what society has unanimously decided in that God will be referred to as he. In no way, however, do I actually believe God is an old man with a white bread who hails in the skies and doesn’t really like women. I certainly do, and I believe I was created in his image so he must love the ladies. It is sad to retort but, in a world where fathers are fast disappearing, God has had to “take the high road” and serve as an ample substitute. I really don't think our one creator would be happy with having to act in place of the flawed humans he created. He's just too awesome for that!
Jesus depended fully on his 'father', God (He).
ReplyDeleteJesus gave women unprecedented respect, infuriating the status quo. Paul spoke to the church in Corinth, where women of that time were...exceptionally vociferous.
God made us in HIS image.
We can reflect but not 'create' Him in our image!
Obviously, i believe that our creator isn't confined to one gender or another and that we MAY have created him in our image precisely by describing his as a father...who has a son, if you're a Christian. I don't think we reflected anything but rushed to the conclusion WE wanted without doing any credible research. Even with sciences advances today in the 21st century, we are nowhere NEAR comprehending God. So could this has been done 2000 years ago.....?
ReplyDeleteAs for Jesus and his unprecedented respect and love for women, i agree with you fully. He revolutionized that aspect of the Jewish culture but, unfortunately, Paul took it upon himself to create a religion where he had authority in speaking for God. This troubles me greatly.
Paul, i believe, undid the work of Jesus in equalizing men and women by including his PERSONAL opinion in a document some might call the "word of God".
The main point im trying to make here is that there is a MAJOR difference between religion and knowing God. Unfortunately, we have bounded the two concepts in a way that only stubborn humans can come up with.
Elird, once again I would like to congratulate you on presenting such an excellent argument to the world. However, here I would like to dissent from you on the fact that you said that every religion likes to "personify" God as male, this I assure you is not the case with Islam. In fact, in the Quran its expressly stated that "the minute you start comparing God with anything human, then its not God anymore". Therefore, Islam advocates that God is a being that does not posses any human characteristics.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course I greatly agree with you about how women rights are toyed with through out the history due to the so-called male chauvinism.
Ahh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up, Yumna. I'm not too knowledgeable on the Islamic faith (yet) so i may make some tragic mistakes.
ReplyDelete:)
no problem :)
ReplyDeleteIn grad school I read an Old Testament introduction that had a lot of interesting A.N.E. literary and archaeological evidence that suggested that God may have been viewed as a woman. I can mail it to you if you're interested.
ReplyDelete-McClain
Wow. I would love to take a look at those dude! You have my email?
ReplyDeleteIf not, hit me up on facebook ;)
From my past experiences and studies I have found that this particular point(the role of women in the church) to be an issue of biblical interpretation rather than chauvinism or discrimination towards women. In the church God gave men and women different roles. God,through the apostle Paul, restricts women from teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men.
ReplyDeleteNow obviously there are "objections" to this idea(and I will go through a few of them) that women shouldn't be in mnistry,one common view being that Paul restricted women from having teaching authority over men because women in the 1st century were typically uneducated. However, no where does Paul mention the educatinal status of women; if education were a requirement for ministry, than most of Jesus' disciples wouldn't meet that requirement, and so, I don't agree that Paul was referring to the educational status of women. Another common objection to this is that some believe that Paul was only talking to the women of Ephesus who were leaders in the worship of a false goddess name Artemis. But since nowhere in 1Timothy is Artemis even mentioned and nowhere does Paul list that as a restricition to ministry, I don't agree with that interpretation either.
Another "objection" is that some believe that they way the Greek words were used suggested that Paul was speaking to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. Now the Greek words COULD refer to husbands and wives, but the BASIC meaning of the words refers to men and women, not specifically husbands and wives. Another hint that Paul was talking to ALL men and women is that in verses 8-10, the same Greek words are used. Does God tell only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer(verse 8) and are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds and worship God(9-10)? Of course not. verses 8-10 clearly refer to all men and women, and there is nothing in the context to suggest that Paul suddenly started talking about husbands and wives. So I also disagree with that interpretation.
Some also believe that the structure of 1 Timothy makes the reason for the different roles very clear. The next verse(13) gives the cause for Pauls' statement in verses 11-12. So why can't women teach and/or have authority over men? Because "Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived." This order of creation has universal application in the family(Ephesians 5: 22-33) and church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. Now this also leads some to believe that women shouldn't teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, then why should they be allowed to teach our children(who ARE easily deceived) and other women(who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women shouldn't teach because Eve was deceived,and as a RESULT of that, God gave men the primary teaching authority in the church.
ReplyDeleteNow don't be mistake here, women are called to ministry, just as much as men are, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit and proclaim the gospel to the lost. Nowhere does the Bible restrict women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The ONLY thing that women are restricted from is having spiritual teaching authority over men. Nothing else.
Now this is my interpretation(or the one I CURRENTLY agree with; but that can change if sufficient biblical evidence is given to suggest otherwise): God has ordained men to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church.Not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent(which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching men or having spiritual authority over them. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.
Some of the text above has been copied, and re-worded, from a site called gotquestions.org. I do NOT take full credit for all of the arguments that are described above. However I do agree with the last paragraph fully. That last paragraph(after the "now this is my interpretaition" part) is also the only one that I directly copy and pasted. I apologize that I didn't put it in quototation marks, but just for the record, it was meant to be in quotation marks I simpy forgot to add them.
ReplyDeleteYou've been very clever in avoiding the very arduous task of defending the notion that women cant minister coz eve was deceived, and therefor women in general are lesser beings and inferior. Its bullshit. Obviusli. But, alas, its what your bible proclaims. Tough break, i know.
ReplyDeleteYOUR interpretation is all went and good. But....why? Why men? You have no answer to that because, biblically, all u can fall back on is chauvinism and patriarchy. Ironically, the two main influences in ur holy text. So, please dont make assertions saying "just becuase said so", coz that isnt good enough.
Women are bashed on because the bible was written in a time when they were indeed lesser beings and the inferior gender. This is the cultural influence in the text u proclaim is the word of god. Obviousli, it isnt. If it were, the culture and tradition of the hebrews at the time wuldnt have influenced it to make such radical claims against females.
Understand that all I did in the previous comments was give u the ideas and argumets of the general popluace, not specifically arguments that U would use.That bit about Eve(and therefore women in general) being inferior because she was deceived was simply an interpretation(which I believe to be mistaken) that many have adopted. NOT what the Bible itself proclaims, I want to be very clear on that. And I believe I gave an explanation as to why that is wrong in the next few sentences.
ReplyDeleteI gave a reason why it was men, and here it is again: Because, in my opinion, God set down the roles for men and women to play in the church. By NO MEANS does that make God a sexist."The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God expects men to take the leadership role in the church and the home. Does this make women inferior? Absolutely not. Does this mean women are less intelligent, less capable, or viewed as less in God’s eyes? Absolutely not! What it means is that in our sin-stained world, there has to be structure and authority. God has instituted the roles of authority for our good. Sexism is the abuse of these roles, not the existence of these roles."
Something u also HAVE to understand is that just because the Bible describes an action, it doesn't necessarily mean that it ENDORSES that action because, yes, MANY times in the Bible we see men treating women as little more than property; but that in NO way means that God approves of it. I believe the Bible is FAR FAR FAR more focused on reforming our souls rather than our society. I think God is smart enough to know that a changed heart will bring with it changed behaviour.
Another thing CRUCIAL for u to understand is that the New Testament is the fulfilling of the Old Testament. Many people dont recognize this fact, and I believe that u have missed it too. To understand this u also have to understand that "it is only when there is personal reconciliation with God through the Lord Jesus Christ that we find true equality. “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32)."
Nathan says, "NOT what the Bible itself proclaims". Im reading a book now about womens roles in the old testement. It explains, chapter after chapter, how tehy were secnd class citizens and put down because of the patriarchial nature of the bible that stems from the tradition and culture at the time (another reason the bible, or any other "holy book" is not truth). Eve's deception is held accountable for this manner of writing the bible.
ReplyDeleteThe second paragraph is u mincing words to defend a text just coz u beleive its true. The sexism is there and there is NO other good reason for men to be given these roles other than god being completely arbitrary. Idk about u freind, but i dont think thats the case. Its sexism in a sexist culture that the bible was conceived in. Read some "liberal" christian literature and you'll see for urself.
People like u take the bible as ultimate truth. Women do get messed up in it, and other like urslef do take that seriusli. I dont tihnk u go that far (which is smth that does indeed make u a lukewarm follower of your bible) coz modern society, thankfully, has somewhat kept u from inheriting the warped view of the word you would ahve gotten had u followed the bible like jesus intended, fully with no excuses. But, you dont. Thats a good thing. Well, in my eyes anywat. Jesus, not so much.
Much of the old testament is so vague tht u can fix it into whatever you please. Thats why the jews dont beleive. Thats why the secular world doesnt buy it. Thats why there are so many denominations. Simple.
Ok so what u are saying with comments like this:"modern society, thankfully, has somewhat kept u from inheriting the warped view of the word you would ahve gotten had u followed the bible like jesus intended" is that if I'm a true follower of Jesus Christ, I SHOULD put women down, treat them like crap. LOL dude. Show me ONE, even ONE instance of Jesus Christ showing discrimination towards ANYONE in the Bible,just try to find even ONE verse that shows Jesus discriminating.
ReplyDeleteAnd once again YES YES YES YES YES YES YES, WOMEN IN BIBLICAL TIMES WERE TREATED AS LITTLE MORE THAN PROPERTY, I HAVE PLENTY OF VERSES(as I'm sure u know) THAT DESCRIBE THIS. But once again, just because the Bible DESCRIBES an action, DOES NOT mean that it ENDORSES that action.
And since u've managed to find time to read books I suggest you read a book that will truly be worth your time: Dethroning Jesus. It brings up every popular argument there is about how "inconsistent" the New Testament is and it involves people(with multiple degrees including PhD's, M.A's and all the big stuff) debating both sides of the coin, so it should help u with your quest to find some form of truth.
And dude, the O.T. was written by Jews. It IS their Holy Book(a.k.a.:The Torah; Mr. Tingle took the liberty of explaining that in World History class) Its the New Testament that they don't agree with. Jews believe that the Messiah is yet to come to this earth; they have a problem with Jesus being the Messiah, not the O.T. being the word of God. Do some research before u attempt to make things help u, because if u don't, ur arguments will utterly fail as this one did.
And about the sexism in Biblical times again. Dude, I KNOW THAT SEXIM EXISTED. I have proof of it. I am NOT denying that it existed. What I am saying is that MAN decided to ABUSE those roles that were given to them. Because YES; up until that point, women WERE treated as the inferior gender in that culture. God obviously DISAGREED with them(part of the reason why he sent Jesus). Man didn't like the change in status that God was promoting; they wanted to keep things how they were before roles were given to them. And so, MAN decided to very conveniently interpret them(the roles God assigned them) as saying that man is superior to women, which is OBVIOUSLY(credit to Jesus) NOT TRUE.
ReplyDeleteHere is something for u to think about: When God created women, what part of Adam's body does the Bible say he used? It says he used one of Adams RIBS. Now why did he do that? He could've easily used a bone from Adams foot(which men would've interpreted as a symbol that God thought that women were inferior). But he didn't. He could've used a bone from Adams head(which man would've interpreted as a symbol for womens SUPERIORITY). But he didn't. He chose to use the RIB(which is located in the MIDDLE of your body by the way) to symbolize that MAN AND WOMAN ARE EQUAL IN HIS SIGHT.
Hallelujah, amen. You are dismissed.<<lol
Nathan, you have been quite the persistant foe in your attempted rebuttals. For this persistance and continuing contribution to my blog i shall grant u last word on this past and others when u comment on it. Im doing a new blog 2nite so we'll have smth new to chew on. (PS, my public debate idea is still on the table if you feel you are able to do what u proclaim you can; that is, defend your faith).
ReplyDeleteAs far as sexism in your bible is concerned: The bible is more than a collection of wicked awesme stories and parables. Its, accrding to christians, the WORD OF GOD. Its read NOT solely as mere documentation but as advise and "what god said to do" (directly or otherwise).
Now, i bviousli dont beleive the bible is the word of god and excuse the sexism in the bible by saying that the sexism during that time invited it. My point is simple, if it WERE the word of god, it wouldnt put women down. IN FACT, it would speak out against it (yes, yes....YES! like jesus did......all those years later? *cough* guess women just had to suffer for a while before the new testament was founded.....oh wait! THATS sexist too! Dang....).
As far as ur analogy about the rib is concerned. It sounds great, its pretty awesome. But its merely your interpretation in the attempt to excuse the absurdity of sexism when YOUR god should have done that himself. Hey, if god had taken adams foreskin to make eve, i could say it meant she came from the mst sensitive part of a man, therefor making him feel her pain! ......stupid, i know. But i feel it highlights my point that u can take anything frm the bible, put a nice spin on it and get away with murder.....yes, murder. Even sexism.
The floor is yours freind, and i look frward to hearing from u in the next post.
lol, I knew u'd bring that bit about the debate to the public eye; but that is not going to stop me from refusing UNTIL I am able to make an assesment 1 on 1, because I'm sure u haven't been able to completely express urself(neither have I) over the blog. So after we are able to have a conversation 1 on 1, THEN I will consider debating you.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what u meant here: "Now, i bviousli dont beleive the bible is the word of god and excuse the sexism in the bible by saying that the sexism during that time invited it." -- so I just won't comment on it.
And once again: IT(the Bible) does NOT teach men to treat women as crap. It doesn't. Never. IT DOES describe HOW MEN IN THAT TIME treated women though; if I told u a story of how some people in my village raped, abused, and then murdered women every day the past week, would that mean that I support it? No. It would take an assumption on your part to make it sound like I'm for it. In the same way, you have gone WAY beyond any evidence that u have provided and come up with a radical conclusion that the God of the Christian Bible is a sexist. He isn't; you haven't even given any valid examples that support your view. You just cling on to the FACT that men in Biblical times treated women unfairly at best; and with that, you translate MANS discrimination into what God wants us to do to women. Yet again, jumping WAY beyond any evidence that u have provided and making a conclusion that works for you.
Elird says:"My point is simple, if it WERE the word of god, it wouldnt put women down. IN FACT, it would speak out against it"-- it does. need I fill the whole blog with verses(from the Old Testament alone) showing this?
Elird says: "But its merely your interpretation in the attempt to excuse the absurdity of sexism when YOUR god should have done that himself." I am highlighting the "YOUR god should have done that himself" part. Well, I would've expected a better argument than that. I could go on all day about, since God is so powerful, why he doesn't just get rid of sin, or temptation, or sexism or anything bad. In my opinion, God uses sexism to challenge us(like he does with a lot of other things). Those that interpret the Bible as promoting sexism have failed the test. Do I know why God does what he does? Can't have the slightest clue, no-one can. And EVEN IF the OT was against women, Jesus made perfectly clear in the NT that men and women are equal in Gods sight, therefore, ending any sexist promoting verses.
Since my words have fallen on deaf ears(hopefully no one actually reading this blog is deaf either, or easily swayed), I will end my argument with the following paragraph.
ReplyDeleteNowhere in the Bible does God APPROVE of sexism. Nowhere; u have failed to give even 1 valid example supporting your view. U have jumped, time and time again, WAY WAY WAY ahead of any evidence that u have provided. Its not what you ARE saying that worries me; its what you LEAVE OUT. Yes, men in Biblical times discriminated against women.FACT. Yes, God gave us the Bible(with all of the roles of women included) knowing full well that it would be a challenge for us to live by it(why he also sent Jesus, to help make life a little easier).FACT. No, God is NOT a sexist.FACT. Like I posted earlier: sexism is the ABUSE of the roles that were given to humans, NOT the existence of them. It was MAN who decided to abuse the roles that were given to them, it wasn't EVER Gods will to put women down.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
ReplyDelete11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
The Bible is the unerring Word of God and therefore, as a woman, I shall be silent on this matter. ;)