It is mutually accepted by skeptics and believers alike that science and religion are two separate entities which cannot be intertwined. A scientist will tell you that his field of study is one that deals with quantifiable and observable things such as speed or weight. Likewise, a religious person will claim that their God is infinite and superior to any form of scientific testing. This is a rare consensus by two polarizing fields that we must all relish. What I find ironic is that a religious person will play the "infinite card" whenever science provides something contradictory to their ideology but, when logic and reason even hint at some truthfulness in their text or beliefs they jump with enthusiasm in saying that even science is on their side. But, I digress.
Blaise Pascal, a French philosopher and mathematician, made an attempt to reconcile the two concepts in the mid 1600s. His theory has many intricate details to marvel over but, in a nutshell, it states: "even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose." As a Christian apologist, Pascal had the Bible's claims in mind when formulating this claim, but it is widely regarded that this "logic" can be used when contemplating any of the vast number of deities in existence.
One is forced to tip their hat off to the Frenchman. He went a step beyond the usual logic that the Bible (or any other text "considered" holy) is the word of God and that's all the proof anyone could ever need. I will even take it a step further and actually agree with him! I mean, it does indeed make sense. Not being a Christian results in burning in hell forever and having to look up at the all the smiling people who threw away any logic and reason to get there. But, actually being a Christian has no implications whatsoever. How many atheists or agnostics have you seen going around to churches claiming that all who submit to this attack of intellectuality will be in immeasurable trouble someday? None.
With that said, I do have a few queries with the reasoning needed to uphold such an assertion. The first is that it is absurd to actually believe that not being a Christian will result in eternal damnation. The only source that states this is an outdated, Bronze Age text that we don't have original copies of or that has ever proven itself credible.
Then, we are forced to wrestle with the issue that an omniscient being would have to resort to fear and coercion to win over the people he created himself. Sure, we have free will. I get that. But doesn’t the bearded guy in the sky have any other ways to advertise this wonderful place called paradise? The only way he seems to be able to make it worth our belief and sacrifice of logic and intelligence is by telling us how bad the other place is. We don’t often contemplate it, but how many people do you think would subscribe to the absurdities of religion if it wasn't for fear of punishment? Would we have this many Christians if they didn't wrongly believe they had everything to lose?
The final problem one finds in the theory is that the other side hasn't resorted to threats. Like I said before, non-believers don't claim that everyone else is doomed simply because they didn’t believe an obscure and obsolete text or didn't ever see it. We are forced to ask ourselves why this is the case. I strongly believe that time of conception has a lot to do with it. Religion was born in a time where human minds were vastly primitive in comparison to today's standards. The writers (middle-eastern men, not God) of the Bible didn't have the advantage of scientific testing and proof or magic to sell their theories. They were forced to resort to scaring the herds of people they governed with their assertions of heaven and hell.
With that said, there are other holes in the ideology. If believing in God makes more sense than not believing in him, then which God exactly do we forfeit our reasoning to!? There are so many! And, they are all equally as gruesome with their threats of unbelief. It's truly a conundrum. I think it's very fair to believe that any unbiased spiritualist seeking the empty hope and comfort that only religion can provide will be utterly lost and confused with his choice. He will be forced, like so many are, to pick the one that suites his way of life and, thereby, creates a god that is in accordance with his criteria. Clearly, the epidemic of creating God in our own image is ever more apparent. Of course, every religious person will argue that they possess the eternal truth and have it right but, they are sadly faced with the burden of proof. And, seeing as they claim that science has no place in religion, they're stuck.
Pascal's Wager is indeed an interesting topic to discuss and contemplate. However, I personally believe that it doesn't serve as a solution to anything. Even if we do somehow forfeit more logic (by logical means, nonetheless!) in believing in one god, how much good will that do? I refer my readers to the post "Jump then Fall", which discusses the epidemic of lukewarm faith and how any god would be unsatisfied with it. It's fair to assume that believing because it makes sense would most definitely be lukewarm faith. We are left with the option of assessing all religions and ideologies about God with a clear mind and, most importantly, without predetermining what result we will have at the end, like Pascal's Wager demands. We will undoubtedly arrive to an array of different conclusions; it's what makes us human. All I wish to one day accomplish is that whatever conclusions we do arrive to, they will not be the result of coercion, fear, need for comfort or indoctrination. You’ll be truly surprised at how similar our conclusions will be.
Blaise Pascal, a French philosopher and mathematician, made an attempt to reconcile the two concepts in the mid 1600s. His theory has many intricate details to marvel over but, in a nutshell, it states: "even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose." As a Christian apologist, Pascal had the Bible's claims in mind when formulating this claim, but it is widely regarded that this "logic" can be used when contemplating any of the vast number of deities in existence.
One is forced to tip their hat off to the Frenchman. He went a step beyond the usual logic that the Bible (or any other text "considered" holy) is the word of God and that's all the proof anyone could ever need. I will even take it a step further and actually agree with him! I mean, it does indeed make sense. Not being a Christian results in burning in hell forever and having to look up at the all the smiling people who threw away any logic and reason to get there. But, actually being a Christian has no implications whatsoever. How many atheists or agnostics have you seen going around to churches claiming that all who submit to this attack of intellectuality will be in immeasurable trouble someday? None.
With that said, I do have a few queries with the reasoning needed to uphold such an assertion. The first is that it is absurd to actually believe that not being a Christian will result in eternal damnation. The only source that states this is an outdated, Bronze Age text that we don't have original copies of or that has ever proven itself credible.
Then, we are forced to wrestle with the issue that an omniscient being would have to resort to fear and coercion to win over the people he created himself. Sure, we have free will. I get that. But doesn’t the bearded guy in the sky have any other ways to advertise this wonderful place called paradise? The only way he seems to be able to make it worth our belief and sacrifice of logic and intelligence is by telling us how bad the other place is. We don’t often contemplate it, but how many people do you think would subscribe to the absurdities of religion if it wasn't for fear of punishment? Would we have this many Christians if they didn't wrongly believe they had everything to lose?
The final problem one finds in the theory is that the other side hasn't resorted to threats. Like I said before, non-believers don't claim that everyone else is doomed simply because they didn’t believe an obscure and obsolete text or didn't ever see it. We are forced to ask ourselves why this is the case. I strongly believe that time of conception has a lot to do with it. Religion was born in a time where human minds were vastly primitive in comparison to today's standards. The writers (middle-eastern men, not God) of the Bible didn't have the advantage of scientific testing and proof or magic to sell their theories. They were forced to resort to scaring the herds of people they governed with their assertions of heaven and hell.
With that said, there are other holes in the ideology. If believing in God makes more sense than not believing in him, then which God exactly do we forfeit our reasoning to!? There are so many! And, they are all equally as gruesome with their threats of unbelief. It's truly a conundrum. I think it's very fair to believe that any unbiased spiritualist seeking the empty hope and comfort that only religion can provide will be utterly lost and confused with his choice. He will be forced, like so many are, to pick the one that suites his way of life and, thereby, creates a god that is in accordance with his criteria. Clearly, the epidemic of creating God in our own image is ever more apparent. Of course, every religious person will argue that they possess the eternal truth and have it right but, they are sadly faced with the burden of proof. And, seeing as they claim that science has no place in religion, they're stuck.
Pascal's Wager is indeed an interesting topic to discuss and contemplate. However, I personally believe that it doesn't serve as a solution to anything. Even if we do somehow forfeit more logic (by logical means, nonetheless!) in believing in one god, how much good will that do? I refer my readers to the post "Jump then Fall", which discusses the epidemic of lukewarm faith and how any god would be unsatisfied with it. It's fair to assume that believing because it makes sense would most definitely be lukewarm faith. We are left with the option of assessing all religions and ideologies about God with a clear mind and, most importantly, without predetermining what result we will have at the end, like Pascal's Wager demands. We will undoubtedly arrive to an array of different conclusions; it's what makes us human. All I wish to one day accomplish is that whatever conclusions we do arrive to, they will not be the result of coercion, fear, need for comfort or indoctrination. You’ll be truly surprised at how similar our conclusions will be.
Hey dude, congrats on another post.
ReplyDeleteElird says:"The first is that it is absurd to actually believe that not being a Christian will result in eternal damnation. The only source that states this is an outdated, Bronze Age text that we don't have original copies of or that has ever proven itself credible."-- Have you ever read any other "holy" book other than the Bible? Because I am currently reading the Koran(English version) and have found many verses that say that being a Christian/Jew doesn't result in going to hell from their(Islamic) point of view(especially in The Cow, which is the first chapter; in fact, as long as they(Christians/Jews) do good works they can get to heaven quite easily. It's everyone else who is in danger(the unbelievers, liars, thieves, etc...)according to the Koran. It makes a point of saying that in every chapter that I have read so far(about Christians going to heaven). So the Bible ISN'T the only "Bronze Age" text that says that not being a Christian will result in going to hell. No we don't have the original copies today, but the copies that we use today have the EXACT same message as the oldest copies that we have ever found,c.120A.D(something that NO OTHER Greek/Hebrew manuscript can boast about), which is not much later than the life of Christ. So if in 2,000 or so years nothing has changed, what makes you think that in 80 or so years the message of the Bible was completely altered?
Elird says:"Then, we are forced to wrestle with the issue that an omniscient being would have to resort to fear and coercion to win over the people he created himself. Sure, we have free will. I get that. But doesn’t the bearded guy in the sky have any other ways to advertise this wonderful place called paradise?"---Yes he does. He gives us plenty of things to look forward to in the book of Revelation. It is filled with things to look forward to in heaven. The River of Life(Rev.22), The New Jerusalem(Rev. 21:1-4). Revelation is filled with things to look forward to. Another thing is the life of Jesus Christ, he lived a perfect sinless life, something that inspires MYSELF to stay committed to Christianity. So no, the threat of eternal damnation is not the ONLY way to convince people to be Christians.
And last but not least, Elird says:"It's fair to assume that believing because it makes sense would most definitely be lukewarm faith."---That just doesn't make sense. If I believe something is true because it makes sense to me, I am a person of lukewarm faith? Part of the reason I believe the Bible at ALL is because it makes sense. Believing in something because it makes sense has nothing to do with lukewarm faith. I don't think u understand what lukewarm faith in the Bible even is.
I congratulate u on reading the koran. What this world will never have enough of is understanding and (hopefully) appreciation of diversity. As far as what u actually argued (that the koran does NOT say unbelievers will perish); you are, yet again, terribly mistaken. I refer you to:
ReplyDeleteSura 33: 65.
ALLAH has, surely, cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a blazing fire, 33: 66. Wherein they will abide forever. They will find therein no friend, nor helper.
You didn't describe anything appealing about this place called heaven. You made comparisons to jerusalem and some sort of river of life. No offence, but jerusalem kinda sucks for me. NO FACEBOOK!!! lol. Anywho, to be more serious, im sure you COULD find some obscure passage in the bible stating how awesome heaven is (like in the koran, with the 70 smth virgins) but my point was that its, for lack of a better or more descriptive word, retarded to scare people into believing with this made up notion of hell. When people wrestle with faith, thats what keeps them in it every time; the "consequences" of being wrong. If that didnt exist, you'd have a LOT less christians. Trust me.
You seem to have misunderstood what i was saying. With the phrase "it makes sense", i mean in terms of probability. This is what the whole post is about, kinda thought you'd figure that out. Anywho, i think you'll agree that it would mean lukewarm faith if u only believe because it is STATISTICALLY PROBABLE.
Glad to clear some things up for you. Thanks for reading :)
I'm not mistaken at all. If u actually took time to read the Koran for yourself and not search google for passages, then we would be on the same page. So I'm not gonna say anything more than this on the subject: Yes it does say that SOME Christians and Jews can go to heaven. Like I said earlier, if you didn't rely on google search and actually read it for yourself you would agree with me. Here is a verse from the Cow: "Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret." There are also many verses that say that the Koran confirms the Gospel and the Scriptures; here is one: "Have faith in my revelations, which confirm your Scriptures, and do not be the first to deny them."(also from the Cow)
ReplyDeleteI'm not surprised that u find none of it appealing, you wouldn't. That just goes to show how boring people think heaven is. It's not boring at all. Many times in the NT we see passages talking of a new heaven and a new earth, and people having resurrected bodies and such. Imagine, if u will, a world without garbage. How much more beautiful would this planet be without all of the plastic bottles and coke cans lying around? A lot. So there is another thing to look forward to. Another thing is the new bodies we will have. When u look at what we can do today, with our bodies' limited abilities, u find that we can do amazing things. How much more so if we have bodies that never get sick, old, or injured? That would be something to look forward to.
Elird says: "When people wrestle with faith, thats what keeps them in it every time; the "consequences" of being wrong. If that didnt exist, you'd have a LOT less christians. Trust me."--- U know your probably right, but let me tell u something: if u think that there are no consequences in life, whats to keep u from committing murder, rape, or thievery? Nothing. The Bible isn't AT ALL about SCARING people into believing that it's the truth. It's about telling you that if u don't acknowledge it and accept it, you're screwed(for lack of a better term). Much like how the Cops todays advertise that if you don't follow the rules, you'll go to prison, or worse.
I didn't misunderstand anything. U did. Lukewarm faith has nothing to do with "statistical probability", science does, mathematics does, but not faith. From my personal experiences(however little they might be), I have found that faith isn't always blind.
For starters, i wish ud be slightly more professional and quote the passage in the koran. That would be of great help. Il go along with the words u said are in the koran. You've done nothing but prove that the koran, much like the bible, is riddled with contradictions. The verse i provided (yes, with google search coz its THAT easy to find such contradictions) and the verse you provided go against eachother. As a Christian you ARE an unbeliever according to the koran. So, you perish. But, as a SPECIFIC christian (for some unknown reason only a religious text could conjure up) you would survive...apparently.
ReplyDeleteAgain, im gonna need you to be slightly more proffesional with your arguments. Please quote the areas where it describes the amazingness of heaven without the fear of hell. You've done a wonderful job of giving your OWN examples of how awesome it is. I salute you. But you havent quoted anything. Im SURE there are quotes. But, for the second time, that wasnt my point. You used cops as an example. In my opinion, a terrible example. God should be NOTHING like cops or a "law" (thats what jesus taught). He shouldnt have to coerce people into beleiving by scaring them. Yet...he does. Thats why (and u agreed with this) so many ppl just stick with religion when sceince proves its false. [Quick note: i dont committnrape or murder because its morally wrong, NOT coz id go to jail. Just the same as i will only believe in smth coz its true, and NOT coz im afraid of the so-called punishment.]
Again, you've missed my point with the lukewarm faith thing. It IS lukewarm if you only believe coz of statistics, and NOT coz its true for you and you actually believe in it with all your heart. Pascals wager makes sense, its not "true".
Faith is needed when sight, or any sense, is impaired. If it wasn't blind, it wouldnt be faith.
U have my apologies that I didn't cite any specific verses, but the Koran that I am reading doesn't have them, its kinda weird, I'll try to be as precise as I can in the future. U have my word(however much that may/may not mean to you), however,that the verses that I provide are nothing less than a form of copy and paste from the Koran I'm reading to this blog. And understand that the Koran isn't my holy book so any possible contradictions u find have no bearing on how I perceive it. Just FYI.
ReplyDeleteU said yourself that u figured that verses describing heaven DID exist in the Bible. Thats exactly why I didn't use any. But now ur telling me to cite exact verses. So do u want me to share verses or not? Because I give u my word once again, I'm not making anything up. Heaven is beyond the comprehension of finite man. That alone should be pretty cool to think about when u consider the great things that finite man has done in this world. Like construct the Pyramids, Eiffel Tower, all the amazing Mansions and Castles, and of course technology in every department. Look for yourself in 1 Corinthians 2:9- However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” And another FYI:The word "Heaven" is found 276 times in the NT alone.
You've gone on and on about how u think that people shouldn't try to put limits on God, describe what he is like, or even call him Father. So let me ask u this: Who are u to say how He should/shouldn't get people's attention? Cause ur doing the EXACT thing u don't want other people to do. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. But I suppose, since u have found this "revelation" (thanks to modern science) that Christianity is riddled with errors and flaws, it becomes OK for u to contradict yourself. The Bible was (and is) a wake up call to humanity to let them know what is going to happen if they continue to live lives not devoted to Him. These verses that describe hell are only scary if u find that they are true.
And yet again, I didn't miss anything about your lukewarm faith thing. I get what ur saying. But what u define as "lukewarm" faith has very little to do with what "lukewarm" faith in the Bible actually is.
And also, PLEASE don't read my comments with the thought that I am angry or upset at u for any reason. I promise u NO MALICE is intended. I've already told u that I don't sugar-coat anything, so please don't misunderstand.
ReplyDeleteThis is something not related to what I just said but, I thought it was fun to think about when dealing with religion, and life in general: "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."
- Ayn Rand
1) I look forward to seeing an exact quote to the words u provided from the koran. I know its not ur holy book, but the bible isnt mine and i still quote it. Its just easier for people to understand what we're talking about that way.
ReplyDelete2) I said im sure there were. You're trying to defend the bible, so the burden of proof is upon you. Again, i look forward to seeing exact quotes about heaven and not the very simple minded cop out that its just TOO big to comprehend so thats what makes it lovely.
3) I didnt contradict myself. Whatever i post on this blog is MY opinion about god. The entire premis of the blog is to encourage people to think about who god may be. I have the right to do that. Where i find fault w the bible is that it does this exact same thing yet passes it off as "divine" and "gods word". It clearly isn't. So no, i have not contradicted myself.
4) The bible contradicts itself when it says that he is "too big for our finite minds to understand" then goes off and tells us how he gets pissed if we worship other gods, has a son and loves israel more than any other tribe. Simple.
5) Concerning the lukewarm faith concept; i give up. You either get it or u dont.
And finally, you haven't: i) refuted my point that the 2 verses we provided contradic eachother. ii)refuted my point that god isnt like a cop (thats what jesus said) and shouldnt have to use coersion. iii) refuted "Faith is needed when sight, or any sense, is impaired. If it wasn't blind, it wouldnt be faith."
Thanks for your time reading the blog :)
Reply #1) Those verses WERE exact quotes. I just couldn't find the verse number because,like I had said,the Koran I use doesn't number the verses like the Bible does. But I did tell u it was from the Cow. If u had more than a shred of interest in it, u would've actually read it for yourself.
ReplyDeleteReply #2) I did, those verses from Revelation were exact verses. And another FYI, the word "hell" is mentioned only 14 times in the NT. So this whole idea that "he(God) has to scare the crap out of people to get them to convert" is ridiculous.
Reply #3) That has nothing to do with what I said. U DID say that people shouldn't try to tell God what he can/can't do, and then u turned around and said "God shouldn't scare people into believing." The fear of hell and the promise of heaven should be equally balanced for people, thats why so few verses talk about hell where so many more talk about heaven; u should only need to warn smne of a bad place a few times, but everyone likes to hear of what joys await them in heaven.
Reply #4) Everything that God said in the OT was effectively changed or confirmed in the NT by Jesus. People just weren't getting it, so He sent Jesus Christ, His son to set easier rules for us to live by. God loves everyone equally.
Reply #5) Good for u.
Reply #6): i) Like I said, I don't care about contradictions in the Koran, thats why I didn't bother defending it; its NOT my holy book, why would I? ii) I'm simply putting things into perspective when I say things like: "The Bible isn't AT ALL about SCARING people into believing that it's the truth. It's about telling you that if u don't acknowledge it and accept it, you're screwed(for lack of a better term). Much like how the Cops todays advertise that if you don't follow the rules, you'll go to prison, or worse", I'm just putting things into an easier way to understand them. Also, how is WARNING people about hell so evil? Its not. U need to warn your kids about the punishment they will receive if they do wrong don't you? U can't just randomly hit them without justification. Thats what the Bible is doing, giving us a heads-up.
Challenge: U URSELF have avoided saying anything about i)"So if in 2,000 or so years nothing has changed, what makes you think that in 80 or so years the message of the Bible was completely altered?" ii) the "new bodies" we ARE promised iii)"And another FYI:The word "Heaven" is found 276 times in the NT alone."--I actually think the number is closer to 369 actually, my bad. iv) Ayn Rand's quote "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."
1) The koran does have the exact verses. I provided them in MY quote. Also, i have a lot of interest. Its up to you to provide acceptable evidence if u wanna use it. Learn that.
ReplyDelete2) Nathan, they were not quotes. U just said things that were in the bible. Great. Wonderful. U didnt provide the exact place where they were. Simple. Also, that doesnt refute the fact that you, SOMEHOW, took it upon yourself to compare god to a cop. Please, at least attempt to explain that away or concede the point.
3) Again, you've said nothing about the matter at hand. Im allowed to have an opinion like everyone else, i just wont scare people into thinking they'll die if they dnt listen to ME. What you DID say, "u should only need to warn smne of a bad place a few times, but everyone likes to hear of what joys await them in heaven." <<< too bad the Bible or its upholders dont do that :(
4) You said, "Everything that God said in the OT was effectively changed or confirmed in the NT by Jesus." Dude, that makes no sense. Im sorry. Did he change it? Or should we uphold it all? Or just some? If some, which ones!!? And who decides which ones!? God?.......yah. Exactly. Stop contradicting yourself.
5)
6)i) My whole premis is that ALL religion is messed up. You helped me prove the koran was when i mostly concentrate on the bible. Thanks for the help and thank you for conceding the point.
ii) You need to get over the fact that u think u need to "make things simpler." You're not doing that at all; you're making terrible comparisons and losing the argument. Also, its TERRIBLE AND WRONG to "warn" ppl about this place hell because NO ONE (yes, no one. Deal with it) knows, by means of proof not outdated religious texts, that it even exists. Its a unproven fable used to keep people believing out of fear.
Pretty i addresed at least some but il "make it simple" for ya ;)
i)Science has only begun to get going in last 50 to 100 years. Im certain that with its furthered development the silly fables of religion will become obsolete. ALSO, it HAS NOT survived 2000 years fully. With the establishment of womens rights, females can now be ordained in some churches. Soon, equality shall provail in our society and we will have to further alter our religious beliefs to the point that they dissolve. I only hope (yet doubt) that il be alive when it happens.
ii) New bodies? Promised? OWWW, in the BIBLE! Ofcourse..... -_- Please, i dont even know why u bothered bringing that up.
iii)The word is found there, sure. Idk about that statistic (you dont even seem to know) but sure. It is. How is it described though? (quotes, please). How is hell described? Ask anyone and they'll say its firey and hot and ur stuck there an INFINITE amount of time for a FINITE sin.
iv) What premis? Thats the point of the blog and u havent done anything to "highlight the faultiness of my premises." To put it simply, Ayn Rand is wrong here. I personally know christians who acknowledge the contradictins and just say they "Struggle with it" coz they dont wanna change.
1)I'm sure yours does, but like I said. MINE does NOT. learn THAT.
ReplyDelete2)How is Rev. 21:1-4, Rev.22 not an exact quote?
3)You said "too bad the Bible or its upholders dont do that :(" referring to the Bible describing heaven. Yes in fact it does. I've listed the # of times 'heaven' is used in the NT alone compared to the # of times 'hell' is used. I'm sure we can both agree that the "threat" of hell isn't mentioned NEARLY as much as the rewards of heaven are. You haven't even read the whole Bible even once in your life. Neither the Koran. And then u have the audacity to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. Shame on you.
4)lol, this goes to show how much u have read the Bible.
5)thought so
6)like I said, I don't defend the Koran. Doesn't matter what u conclude. Since u don't believe that neither heaven nor hell exist, it shouldn't matter to u at all what is said on the subject.
i) First off, womens rights has nothing to do with whether or not the message of the Bible was altered in 2000yrs.Second, u keep going in circles about how sexist the Bible is without providing a shred of proof.
ii)whatever that is supposed to mean
iii)Of course u don't know about the statistic, u haven't even read the whole NT(I doubt even a single book in it)once in your life.
iv)Any Christians who have admitted to the "contradictions" in the Bible have/are 1:never studied the Bible for themselves(probably relied on Google search); 2:most definitely American teenagers u've talked with either in America or in Kosova; 3: only considered themselves as Christian because their parents and grandparents were(much like how people in Kosova call themselves Muslims, but have never even read the Koran).
And one more thing, I'm not going to argue with someone who uses Google Search as their main resource for coming up with arguments anymore. I'll wait til u get back here and we can talk face to face to continue this conversation. Its easy to talk crap over the internet where u have hours to contemplate what u are going to say, speaking in person is a very different animal.
1) All it takes is a google search ;)
ReplyDelete2) I asked you to quote descriptions of this place called heaven that wud make it appealing to ppl. You refernced a river and jerusalem.
3) Lol, shame on you? You sound like a preacher scolding some kids for talking at sunday school. Look man, i never talked about how many times it was used. I talked about HOW it was and described. Out of the 200+ refernces u havent been able to provide one.... Shame on you!? lol, im kidding :P
4) You havent refuted that.
5)
6) Dont assume what i believe and dont. You'd lose majre points in a debate. Also, it concerns me because too many people are, literally, scared into believing the myths that religion preaches.
i) 1 timothy 2: 11-15. Also, i urge you to read mclains book on the old testament thru the eyes of a feminst. Dont continue denying sexism in the bible, you look ignorant.
ii) You didnt refute that.
iii) You havent refuted my point. Again, your making assumptions on what i have and have not read. Foolish.
iv) You have NO idea how wrong you are. If we get talk in person, i will give you names. Your ignorance has astounded me this time.
Animal? lol, i challenged you to a debate in front of everyone and you wussied out... Idk what to tell you about that animal. Whats even sadder is that my reliance on google search has been enough to refute whatever claim you have tried to make and highlight the ways u contradict yourself. Why would i spend more time and effort preparing when its truly unnecesary?
Il be in kosovo for a few days, hit me up whenever and we'll talk about setting up a public forum where the public will be the judge of our arguments. I look forward to it.